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Roof Cleaning New Jersey · Apr 30, 2013

Delavan 5850

RCIA Founder

Roof Cleaning New Jersey wrote:
Ray what size hose are you using? The larger the hose the more head pressure back to the pump. I
We use 1/2" hose. The pumps can sometimes run smooth at ground level, then cycle once you get on the roof. An accumulator can help slow the cycle. It won't completely eliminate the cycling. But it should help a little, in theory. My next 5850 order will probably be a case.

-- Edited by Roof Cleaning New Jersey on Tuesday 30th of April 2013 12:54:23 PM

Have you ever watched a Fire Truck shoot water up a tall building ?

They use HUGE Diameter hose, because it is less restrictive on pumps.

It is time to put this false information about causing more head pressure to BED, about larger diameter hose. Larger diameter hose is ALWAYS better, period.

This crap all started because some distributor wanted to sell the 1/2 inch hose they had in stock (and the small hose reels for it) vs stocking the superior 5/8 hose, and the larger hose reels needed to use it.

Here is a tree sprayer skid! http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=585 Notice what size hose they use ?

Guess what, it ain't 1/2 inch disbelief

They use 3/4 diameter hose, because that extra 10 to 20 feet shot, may be required, if they have to hit the top of a tree!

They can't afford to Fuk around!

Roof Cleaning Tallahassee · Guest

When I get above one story, the pump kicks on and off very quickly. Actually so quick, that I can hear it but the flow is never interupted. When I get back down to ground level or one story up, it's fine. Is this the start of a pressure switch failure? Complete pump failure? I thought I'd ask here before I gave Bob at PT a shout. I have a back up pump on stand by but just wanted to know if anyone else had this issue and what caused it and if it was as simple as just replacing the pressure switch.

Apr 30, 2013

Roof Cleaning Tallahassee wrote:
When I get above one story, the pump kicks on and off very quickly. Actually so quick, that I can hear it but the flow is never interupted. When I get back down to ground level or one story up, it's fine. Is this the start of a pressure switch failure? Complete pump failure? I thought I'd ask here before I gave Bob at PT a shout. I have a back up pump on stand by but just wanted to know if anyone else had this issue and what caused it and if it was as simple as just replacing the pressure switch.

You need to readjust the pressure on the pump with an allen wrench, with the pump running. Best done with one guy spraying on the roof and another adjusting the pressure up or down until it stops cycling.

Liberty SoftWash · Apr 30, 2013

We run 5/8 hose and the 5850 runs fine even at 2 stories.

Roof Cleaning Tallahassee · Guest

Roof Cleaning New Jersey wrote:
Ray what size hose are you using? The larger the hose the more head pressure back to the pump. I
We use 1/2" hose. The pumps can sometimes run smooth at ground level, then cycle once you get on the roof. An accumulator can help slow the cycle. It won't completely eliminate the cycling. But it should help a little, in theory. My next 5850 order will probably be a case.

I used to use 5/8" with no propblems and just started using 1/2" a few weeks ago. I'm just going to see how long it will go and run it to failure or takes Chucks advise. Ed, do you ever try rebuilding any of those worn out pumps? Or is it just not worth the time/money to put into them?

Roof Cleaning New Jersey · Apr 30, 2013

Ray I used to try and fix them. I don't anymore. Even the pressure switches I manage to screw up. I hook up the pumps and work it. If it goes relatively quick, I'll hang on to it and send it back if I feel there;s a cluster of bad pumps. Other than that I just toss em.

May 1, 2013

Hmmmm, comparing fire hoses and tree spraying hoses? They shoot a larger volume of liquid, because the outlet gun and any type of tip on them are large, making the larger hose necessary.

We put little tips on our guns / ball valves. I have both setups 5/8th and 1/2"

I now only use the 5/8 for backup.

No matter how many GPR your hose can put out, if your tip only puts out 1 GPM, nothing changes.

I have compared them side by side and I can fill a 5 gallon bucket in equal time, using either with identical tips.

The hose is 5/8" but what is the size of the hole in the ball valve?

Plus, with 60psi pushing mix through a tip, you could hook up a fire hose and that tip will still allow only so much liquid through at a time.

That's my take on it.

Now, if you are not using a ball valve or gun with a pressure washing type tip and you use a garden hose gun-that's different!

I tried that once and didn't like it. I want to minimize runoff, not increase it.

But my wife says I'm stupid, so maybe I'm wrong? I was almost wrong once, but it turned out to be an error instead! biggrin

May 1, 2013

GOODNIGHT YALLZ!

Roof Cleaning Katy Texas (281) 392-2304 · May 1, 2013

I use a pentaflex pump with 1/2" hose and have no problem shooting 30 feet with a .30 dia roof cleaning tip. I clean some serious 3 story 7,000 sq ft roofs with no problem. Why would I want to lug around a bigger and heavier hose.

Roof Cleaning New Jersey · May 1, 2013

No matter what size hose you have if you go up enough floors the pump will eventually not work at all. Why? Because the head is too high. The weight of the water creates a psi higher than the shut off setting of the pump. If the weight of the water creates a psi that fluctuates near the shut off psi of the pump, cycling will occur.

Hapoens all the time. Pump runs smooth at ground level, yet will cycle once you get on the roof. Chris, your fire hose demonstration is relevant for air pumps, not for on-demand pumps. Head pressure matters. Who can do the math to get the psi for columns of water for 1" hose at 20' and 1/2" hose at 20'? The psi will be greater for the larger hose.

RCIA Founder

Roof Cleaning New Jersey wrote:
I looked into it another minute. Calculations for measuring psi in a cycinder doesn't involve the diameter. Every where I've looked, the calculation for measuring is: 1 psi = 2.31 vertical feet. Therefore I was incorrect stating that a larger hose creates more pressure. If you are 15' high on a roof you still will be getting 7 psi back to the pump which can cause the pump to cycle.
A larger hose will provide more supply. And it will also create the same exact back pressure to the pump as a smaller hose will. A larger hose will not necessarily solve a cycling problem.

Well, let's examine that ? A long small hose is restrictive , just like a small nozzle is. We do not use smaller nozzles on a 12 volt pump, because they make the pump cycle on and off. What we want is a nozzle big enough to keep the pump running, but not so big we lose pressure in our spray.

A Pump is "Stupid", it only senses added resistance to flow, and that added resistance to flow can come from 2 things

#1- a smaller nozzle size

#2- a long small diameter restrictive hose

So, let's say the pump and 5/8 hose combination was spraying fine (not cycling) with a nozzle you have always used, and all you do is substitute 1/2 hose for the 5/8 hose you once had, you are FUNKED !

The pump will see the 1/2 inch hose, the same way as if you had reduced nozzle size, with the 5/8 hose!

Always remember this - THE HOSE SIZE, LENGTH, AND NOZZLE, ARE BOTH IMPORTANT TO THE PUMP, CHANGE ONE, AND YOU WILL LIKELY HAVE TO CHANGE THE OTHER!

Here is some good reading guys, another reason why I only suggest 5/8 hose or bigger, for watering plants biggrin

What Size Garden Hose is Right For Your Needs?

Most people don’t give much thought to selecting a new garden hose. They pick one up when their old one splits or when their current garden hose isn’t long enough to reach an area they want to water. Confronted in the hardware aisle with the dozens of styles, types and sizes of garden hoses, most people either buy the hose that’s on sale or opt for a mid-range garden hose in the length they think they need.

Unfortunately, since they didn’t stop to think about their needs before choosing a replacement water hose, they often end up with yet another hose that doesn’t quite meet their needs and has to be replaced in a year or two. Next time you have to replace or buy a garden hose, take a few minutes to consider your needs and learn how to choose the hose that best meets them.

Diameter

Diameter is an often over-looked factor in choosing the right hose for your needs. The diameter of the hose determines both the amount of water you can deliver per minute to your destination and the strength of the stream you can direct at it. While there are other factors in determining water pressure – distance traveled and incline, specifically – the diameter of your garden hose is the most important one.

The most commonly bought garden hoses are 5/8 inch in diameter, with ½ inch garden hose and ¾ inch garden hose coming in slightly behind it in popularity. While they may all sound close in size, the performance differences among the three hoses are surprisingly significant.

Just how significant?

The average home water pressure is about 40 pounds per square inch (psi). If you hook up a 25-foot long 5/8 inch water hose, it will put out about 44 gallons of water per minute. A ½ inch garden hose of the same length would only deliver 24 gallons of water per minute while a ¾ inch garden hose would deliver water at the rate of 72 gallons per minute.

In other words, ¾ inch garden hose delivers water three times as fast as a ½ inch garden hose. If your intent is to fill a swimming pool or garden pond with water, it will fill three times as fast with the wider diameter hose.

Length

Obviously, you want to choose a garden hose that will reach your intended destination, whether it’s your driveway for washing your car or your garden. However, it’s also important to remember that the length of your garden hose will affect the flow rate and water pressure. The longer your hose is, the lower your water flow rate will be. In order to make the best use of water, choose the shortest length of hose to get to your destination.

Next time you need to buy or replace a garden hose, take a few minutes to think about how you’re going to use it so you can be sure to choose the best size garden hose for your needs.

Roof Cleaning Tallahassee · Guest

Ed is 100% on this. Below is a chart for a sump pump (couldn't find one for Delavan). And to just throw some numbers around to make it a little more clear; If a gallon of SH weighs 8.34 pounds and you have 5 gallons of SH in your hose (I have 225' and it holds about 5 gallons). 5 gallons weighs 41.7 pounds and if you had your hose 200' in the air, that would mean there was 41.7 pounds of back pressure forcing back on the outlet side of the pump. Now half that. That's 20 pounds of back pressure with the hose 100' up. That's quite a bit of head pressure for these small pumps.

This pump might have done this in the past but because I was out in the suberbs with no traffic and so quiet out there you could almost here a pin drop, that I was able to hear it cycle crystal clear.

RCIA Founder

Roof Cleaning Katy Texas (281) 392-2304 wrote:
I use a pentaflex pump with 1/2" hose and have no problem shooting 30 feet with a .30 dia roof cleaning tip. I clean some serious 3 story 7,000 sq ft roofs with no problem. Why would I want to lug around a bigger and heavier hose.

Simple, the bigger the diameter of the hose, the less restriction, and the less pressure and flow loss. The smaller the hose diameter, the harder the pump works.

!/2 may be enough for your needs, but the pump will last longer with 5/8 hose, (and spray better) because it is working less hard.

Roof Cleaning New Jersey · May 1, 2013

I looked into it another minute. Calculations for measuring psi in a cycinder doesn't involve the diameter. Every where I've looked, the calculation for measuring is: 1 psi = 2.31 vertical feet. Therefore I was incorrect stating that a larger hose creates more pressure. If you are 15' high on a roof you still will be getting 7 psi back to the pump which can cause the pump to cycle.

A larger hose will provide more supply. And it will also create the same exact back pressure to the pump as a smaller hose will. A larger hose will not necessarily solve a cycling problem.

Roof Cleaning Katy Texas (281) 392-2304 · May 3, 2013

Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:
Roof Cleaning New Jersey wrote:
I looked into it another minute. Calculations for measuring psi in a cycinder doesn't involve the diameter. Every where I've looked, the calculation for measuring is: 1 psi = 2.31 vertical feet. Therefore I was incorrect stating that a larger hose creates more pressure. If you are 15' high on a roof you still will be getting 7 psi back to the pump which can cause the pump to cycle.
A larger hose will provide more supply. And it will also create the same exact back pressure to the pump as a smaller hose will. A larger hose will not necessarily solve a cycling problem.
Well, let's examine that ? A long small hose is restrictive , just like a small nozzle is. We do not use smaller nozzles on a 12 volt pump, because they make the pump cycle on and off. What we want is a nozzle big enough to keep the pump running, but not so big we lose pressure in our spray.
A Pump is "Stupid", it only senses added resistance to flow, and that added resistance to flow can come from 2 things
#1- a smaller nozzle size
#2- a long small diameter restrictive hose
So, let's say the pump and 5/8 hose combination was spraying fine (not cycling) with a nozzle you have always used, and all you do is substitute 1/2 hose for the 5/8 hose you once had, you are FUNKED !
The pump will see the 1/2 inch hose, the same way as if you had reduced nozzle size, with the 5/8 hose!
Always remember this - THE HOSE SIZE, LENGTH, AND NOZZLE, ARE BOTH IMPORTANT TO THE PUMP, CHANGE ONE, AND YOU WILL LIKELY HAVE TO CHANGE THE OTHER!
Here is some good reading guys, another reason why I only suggest 5/8 hose or bigger, for watering plants
What Size Garden Hose is Right For Your Needs?

Most people don’t give much thought to selecting a new garden hose. They pick one up when their old one splits or when their current garden hose isn’t long enough to reach an area they want to water. Confronted in the hardware aisle with the dozens of styles, types and sizes of garden hoses, most people either buy the hose that’s on sale or opt for a mid-range garden hose in the length they think they need.

Unfortunately, since they didn’t stop to think about their needs before choosing a replacement water hose, they often end up with yet another hose that doesn’t quite meet their needs and has to be replaced in a year or two. Next time you have to replace or buy a garden hose, take a few minutes to consider your needs and learn how to choose the hose that best meets them.

Diameter

Diameter is an often over-looked factor in choosing the right hose for your needs. The diameter of the hose determines both the amount of water you can deliver per minute to your destination and the strength of the stream you can direct at it. While there are other factors in determining water pressure – distance traveled and incline, specifically – the diameter of your garden hose is the most important one.

The most commonly bought garden hoses are 5/8 inch in diameter, with ½ inch garden hose and ¾ inch garden hose coming in slightly behind it in popularity. While they may all sound close in size, the performance differences among the three hoses are surprisingly significant.

Just how significant?

The average home water pressure is about 40 pounds per square inch (psi). If you hook up a 25-foot long 5/8 inch water hose, it will put out about 44 gallons of water per minute. A ½ inch garden hose of the same length would only deliver 24 gallons of water per minute while a ¾ inch garden hose would deliver water at the rate of 72 gallons per minute.

In other words, ¾ inch garden hose delivers water three times as fast as a ½ inch garden hose. If your intent is to fill a swimming pool or garden pond with water, it will fill three times as fast with the wider diameter hose.

Length

Obviously, you want to choose a garden hose that will reach your intended destination, whether it’s your driveway for washing your car or your garden. However, it’s also important to remember that the length of your garden hose will affect the flow rate and water pressure. The longer your hose is, the lower your water flow rate will be. In order to make the best use of water, choose the shortest length of hose to get to your destination.

Next time you need to buy or replace a garden hose, take a few minutes to think about how you’re going to use it so you can be sure to choose the best size garden hose for your needs.

Good points Chris but you have to read between the lines and the bottom line is this. Pentaflex pumps will handle 1/2" hose with no problem. My pentaflex pump puts out 60 PSI whereas the house water pressure is only 40psi. The pentaflex is rated for 7 GPM unnozzled. If at 25' the 1/2" hose puts out 24 gpm then what does it put out at 200'? Yes my pentaflex cycles with a .30 nozzle but it has never burned out a pressure switch yet. I still have 5 pressure switches sitting on the shelf. Now my old delavan Fat Boy used to burn up pressure switches about every week. Fortunately they were only $1.25 a piece. That is why I quit using delavan fat boys

What I have found is that the pentaflex is a far superior pump than the delavan fat boy and can with stand the cycling. You mentioned to me before that Bob at pressure tek has outfitted on with a relay on the outside of the pentaflex. I tore down and cleaned a pentaflex pump after using CH. What a mess. The pentaflex does not have a relay. It has a hybrid pressure switch that can handle the current. It is the delafan fat boy that has a relay that will overheat from cycling and burn up.

If I use a .40 diameter nozzle with a 1/2" hose the pentaflex does not cycle. I am also using a suttner stainless steel 12gpm trigger gun. If I switch back to the .30 nozzle it cycles again. I do not use the .40 nozzle as it uses to much SH solution. When you are cleaning tile roofs that much solution runs off the roof and is wasted. So it is the nozzle size and not the hose diameter that causes the cycling on pentaflex pumps.

By the way, my new 1" All-Flo pump arrived today from Pressure Washer Service (their part # AFKN10E or All-Flo's part # KN10E). There was no restock fee on the returned pump that had flange fittings. This pump is a 40gpm puimp. Way more than I will ever need. I am looking forward to trying it out as soon as things slow down a little this Summer.

Roof Cleaning Tallahassee · Guest

Chris and Marcus, BOTH great, point but not to inturupt your conversation and keep this thead going, I'd like to hear more about head pressure and two story and above pump failures fro Delavan 5850 users.

I thought it might be a battery issue and have (since posting this thread) have run two deep cycle batteries together in parallel instead of just one but get the same results. Pump cycles like crazy on the second floor roof but it is fine when shooting the garage from the ground. The flow is fine but I can hear the pump cycling.

Not that I'm worried because I allways carry a back-up pump but I'm just puzzled why it's doing it and how long the pump will last shooting two story roof while cycling like this. Hopefully this will be a learning experience for all 5850 users and I can report back with some scientific data...LOL

Stay Clean · Guest

Roof Cleaning Tallahassee wrote:
Hopefully this will be a learning experience for all 5850 users and I can report back with some scientific data...LOL

Ray I too am using this pump so I am interested in your results. Im no expert but I'd like to chime in if I may.

I use the 5850 with 200' of 1/2 poly to a trigger gun with .20 and .30 tips. I haven't noticed the pump cycle at any level but Im not right next to it so I can't say for sure if it does or doesn't. I'll keep an eye on it next time if I remember.

I like what marcus had to say about the nozzle size. What size nozzle are you spraying with?

I have something for you to try if you havent already. On your next 2-story roof do an experiment with water and use the next size bigger nozzle and see if that stops the cycling. Or better yet, take the nozzle out and see if the pump cycles with a free flow of water. If I remember right you use a 1/2" ball valve to spray with. I don't see how that could be the problem but anything is possible. Maybe try a 3/4" and if it doesn't work your only out a few bucks and have an extra valve. If it's not the nozzle or valve then I guess we're back to the pressure switch (head pressure problem) or hose size. Im sure Bob at PT has had this happen and can give you an answer.

Good luck, hope you find the answers your looking for and pass them along.

Roof Cleaning Tallahassee · Guest

David, great suggestions. I switched from the ball valve to a standard trigger sprayer. I might switch back though because when you knock into something or drop it, the damn thing will spray back at you. You got me thinking about the 1/2" poly (that's what I switched to not long ago) and also have a male fitting with a hose barb that restricts the flow even more. I guess I could swith back to the 5/8" just as a comparison.

RCIA Founder

Roof Cleaning Tallahassee wrote:
David, great suggestions. I switched from the ball valve to a standard trigger sprayer. I might switch back though because when you knock into something or drop it, the damn thing will spray back at you. You got me thinking about the 1/2" poly (that's what I switched to not long ago) and also have a male fitting with a hose barb that restricts the flow even more. I guess I could swith back to the 5/8" just as a comparison.

I hate when that happens, another reason why we use ball valves.

The Roof Cleaning Institute Of America Training & Certification Forum "Find A Certified Roof Cleaner Directory"

What Size Garden Hose is Right For Your Needs?

What Size Garden Hose is Right For Your Needs?

The Roof Cleaning Institute Of America Training & Certification Forum
"Find A Certified Roof Cleaner Directory"