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idontknow · Guest

2 Step Cleaning

idontknow · Guest

Quote;
The basic theory behind, Twin Chem cleaning is as follows:
• Acids and Alkalis are not compatible when mixed together.
• When the two come in contact with each other an adverse chemical reaction will occur. However, when applied in a proper Twin Chem environment, this adverse reaction will result in a unique cleaning process whereby the reaction of the two products will actually lift and emulsify the pollutant and reduce the positive surface charge. The results will be astounding - Pollutants will immediately release themselves from the surface providing for a fast-free rinse cycle.

http://www.propowerwash.com/board/upload/showthread.php?t=12786&highlight=high+ph+soap

white fox · Guest

"plus the run off is ph neutral due to mixing of acid and alkaline cancelling each other out , if this is true what will keep it from becoming neutral right away? The concept sounds good I am waiting for more feedback

-- Edited by garyw on Saturday 9th of January 2010 09:09:02 PM

guest

white fox wrote:

"plus the run off is ph neutral due to mixing of acid and alkaline cancelling each other out , if this is true what will keep it from becoming neutral right away? The concept sounds good I am waiting for more feedback

Their has been plenty of talk here on this board talking about this, and the last conversation that I know of their was no practical neutralizer for our specific applications.

-- Edited by Walk on Saturday 9th of January 2010 09:32:57 AM

-- Edited by garyw on Saturday 9th of January 2010 09:09:50 PM

RCIA Founder

This method is used for washing trucks.
However, mixing acid and sodium hypochlorite together will not improve it's cleaning.
The cleaning part of sodium hypochlorite is called the hypochlorite ion, and is active at HIGH Ph.
Acid will lower the PH, making the killing part better, as far as disinfecting goes, but for better cleaning, we need to maintain a high ph.

idontknow · Guest

I just found the process interesting, just thinking out loud.

say you come across a realy bad mold covered roof and you think it may need to be hit a few times with the love to clean it up, since low ph chlorine kills mold better how about trying to lower the ph to help kill the mold, changing the ph of chlorine is as easy as adding sugar to coffee, low ph spray first to get maximum mold kill, then use high ph chlorine (standard) to clean/rinse

I am not trying to change the way the world turns, I'm just throwing ideas around. food for thought

KP Diamond · Guest

Two step cleaning used in this regard is based on the fact that 'road film' on vehicles is held there by an electrostatic bond or 'static electricity'. As a vehicle cuts through the air at high speed, certain pollutants attach themselves this way. The two step process neutralizes this bond, like being able to turn off a magnet that has metal shavings stuck to it, allowing the pollutants to be more easily rinsed away, ie. less pressure, less labor etc. Apples vs Oranges when it comes to roof cleaning.

idontknow · Guest

Thank you KP,

For our tile roofs I have also been thinking about adding a cup of alkaline truck wash just as a bit extra kick.

Our tile roofs have a lot of dirt, dust & atmospheric pollutants on them as well as black mold. killing mold is one thing, cleaning the dirt off is another.

Thank you for all your comments about this idea

Pressure Washer Products · Guest

It has been a while since organic chemistry class. (I apparently don't have the gene to see in 3D according to my professor!!!)

Am I remembering correctly? Acid + Base = Gas + Salt + Water

Keep acids and bases far from each other. In the Pool Cleaning Industry they do lower the pH prior to shocking a pool with liquid or high pH chlorine. You guys are right. Clorine is more effective when the pH is lower. You are also right. Fleet washing (and cleaning pools) are much different from cleaning roofs?

Lori

idontknow · Guest

I accept all that has been said, I would not question the pro's methods or advice. I am here to learn, not teach.

Having said that, mold & algae is mold & algae, dirt is dirt, chlorine is chlorine, surfactants are surfactants.

every thing I read about killing mold & algae whether in a pool, water supply, home or where ever seems to point to neutral PH to slightly acid solutions, where as cleaning dirt requires higher PH levels, surfactants, I suppose it is all about balance to achieve a goal with one application (the hit it and run method)

Don't even get me started on things such as Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate, Lithium Hypochlorite or Peracetic acid (more powerful then Chlorine Dioxide but safer & easier to use at ph 7.0)

The BBQ is at 7.00 you are all welcome to come and talk about it, steak & cold beer is provided.

RCIA Founder

Pressure Washer Products wrote:

It has been a while since organic chemistry class. (I apparently don't have the gene to see in 3D according to my professor!!!)

Am I remembering correctly? Acid + Base = Gas + Salt + Water

Keep acids and bases far from each other. In the Pool Cleaning Industry they do lower the pH prior to shocking a pool with liquid or high pH chlorine. You guys are right. Clorine is more effective when the pH is lower. You are also right. Fleet washing (and cleaning pools) are much different from cleaning roofs?

Lori

Not for cleaning it isn't.
For disinfecting a swimming pool, yes, you want lower PH, but for cleaning, higher PH of the chlorine solution is far better.
This is why TSP is so effective when used with chlorine, it jacks up the PH, as does sodium hydroxide.

RCIA Founder

idontknow wrote:

I accept all that has been said, I would not question the pro's methods or advice. I am here to learn, not teach.

Having said that, mold & algae is mold & algae, dirt is dirt, chlorine is chlorine, surfactants are surfactants.

every thing I read about killing mold & algae whether in a pool, water supply, home or where ever seems to point to neutral PH to slightly acid solutions, where as cleaning dirt requires higher PH levels, surfactants, I suppose it is all about balance to achieve a goal with one application (the hit it and run method)

Don't even get me started on things such as Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate, Lithium Hypochlorite or Peracetic acid (more powerful then Chlorine Dioxide but safer & easier to use at ph 7.0)

The BBQ is at 7.00 you are all welcome to come and talk about it, steak & cold beer is provided.

It is GOOD you are thinking out loud !!!!
I am proud of YOU !
We NEED thinkers here at RCIA.
You will hit many dead ends in roof cleaning knowledge.
Einstein hit many dead ends before he learned to split an Atom.

plainpainter · Guest

Chris is right - we battled this out a couple of years ago - you want high ph chlorine for nitrogen based life. The hypoclorous acid is good for killing bacteria and germs, if you had anthrax - this is what you want.

I used Chris' 'apple sauce' mix on a roof in summer of '08 - and didn't rinse. I drove by it a few months ago and it's still spotless, and the neighbors roof which was done by a painting crew with only high pressure water is now filled with lichens again after only one year - even though it visually looked clean right after the high pressure wash.

RCIA Founder

plainpainter wrote:

Chris is right - we battled this out a couple of years ago - you want high ph chlorine for nitrogen based life. The hypoclorous acid is good for killing bacteria and germs, if you had anthrax - this is what you want.

I used Chris' 'apple sauce' mix on a roof in summer of '08 - and didn't rinse. I drove by it a few months ago and it's still spotless, and the neighbors roof which was done by a painting crew with only high pressure water is now filled with lichens again after only one year - even though it visually looked clean right after the high pressure wash.

Welcome Dan !!!
Did you ever get a web site yet ?
If so, might want to fill out the signature ?
This forum is very highly ranked, and will provide a great link for you.

idontknow · Guest

Ok

Now here's the thing, Tile roofs, now where I live we have this wonderful red dirt and red clay, did I say wonderful? I meant PITA red dirt. now with our roofs this red devil settles then bakes on, now I have tried every thing, Max strength Sodium hypochlorite, sodium hydroxide, Tsp. borax, Hydrochloric acid, Commercial degreasers, Sodium percarbonate, car wash mixes etc. etc. etc. now nothing really cleans this stuff off (with out pressure) now today I found a bottle of rust killer in my garage ( Phosphoric acid) Owww acid! but wait this acid is actually non toxic, they put it in Coke! and soft drinks, it is used in the tile & grout cleaning trades (inside homes) and is considered "safe" and when I pored a few drops onto our famous red dirt on my driveway it instantly foamed up and the red dirt started lifting up and off the concrete and drifted away, now after a few minutes and a quick hose rinse, hay presto clean concrete red dirt gone, hmmm, my thoughts went back to, you guest it "2 step cleaning"

So here's a question? what do you guy's know about Phosphoric acid? has anyone tried it on TILE ROOF'S, do any of you use it for cleaning, concrete, timber, tin roof's (it's a rust killer)?

Now point #2 I also came across this stuff "Propionic acid" this stuff is a food additive, used to prevent mold in bread plus a thousand other products. Found a site claiming it to be a better mold killer then SH and safer????? and recommend it to be used as a mold preventative, has any one heard of it? or used it?

Midtown · Guest

I've never used it but I'm studying acid staining. Here is a quote from Bob Harris' Guide to Stained Concrete Interior Floors:

"Although some strain manufacturers do not recommend acid washing the slab when preparing the surface for a stain, the use of a mineral acid (such as phosphoric or sulfamic) in a diluted solution can etch problem surfaces without jeopardizing the reaction of the chemical stain." page 45

Seems relatively mild; I'd proceed cautiously :D

idontknow · Guest

Just out of interest, and in regards to my post about Phosphoric acid, I found this out today
TSP is made from trisodium phosphate which is ""soda ash and phosphoric acid""

it seems you guys have been using "a form off / or part there off" phosphoric acid already

Who would have known!

Chemistry makes my brain hurt!

RCIA Founder

idontknow wrote:

Just out of interest, and in regards to my post about Phosphoric acid, I found this out today
TSP is made from trisodium phosphate which is ""soda ash and phosphoric acid""

it seems you guys have been using "a form off / or part there off" phosphoric acid already

Who would have known!

Chemistry makes my brain hurt!

It may be made from Acid, but it is very alkaline.

KP Diamond · Guest

Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa FL (813) 655-8777 wrote:

idontknow wrote:

Just out of interest, and in regards to my post about Phosphoric acid, I found this out today
TSP is made from trisodium phosphate which is ""soda ash and phosphoric acid""

it seems you guys have been using "a form off / or part there off" phosphoric acid already

Who would have known!

Chemistry makes my brain hurt!

It may be made from Acid, but it is very alkaline.

I'm no chemist, but as Chris said TSP is very Basic (alkaline). The only reason I can think that acid would be part of the mix would to bring an overly aggressive base down a notch or two to safe, usable levels. To me, that would be like saying "to make usable warm water, we need to take this REALLY hot water and add some cold water". They neutralize each other out. Eventually you get to a pH of 7 which is neutral. Or room temperature.

Either way, its a good thing that TSP is alkaline, because acid is about as effective on roofs as it is on grease and oil. Unless it's a rust stain.

KP Diamond · Guest

Martin,

I just had another thought about your 'red dirt' problem. I think the successful results on your driveway have more to do with the composition of the concrete. Concrete here is the USA is made from 3 things: Portland Cement, rocks/sand, and water. The cement has some ingredients which I think are reacting to the acid, some of which include calcium silicates, iron, magnesium and aluminum. The acid is reacting with the materials in the concrete, that's why you get the bubbling and fizzing. It also whitens it in the process.

If the roofs there are made of concrete, then you might get some short term results. Even then, I have tried this on my own driveway and it doesn't seem to stay 'clean' very long, but I'm not dealing with your 'red dirt' either.

We use acid to remove oxidation from aluminum siding and to remove iron (rust) stains. Also to clean the aluminum fuel tanks on big rig trucks.

The big problem with acid in my experience is that once you get to a level where it is doing something, it is VERY harsh on ALL grass and plants, window glass, and that sensitive area just in front of your brain and down a little bit called the mucous membranes.

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Roof Cleaning Wake Forest, Raleigh, Knightdale, Rolesville, Youngsville NC

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Roof Cleaning Wake Forest NC 27587
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